How mindset shapes life and health (re)insurance partnerships

00:00:03: Replay by Hannover Re.

00:00:05: Expert insights on life and health insurance.

00:00:17: Welcome to Replay by Hannover Re.

00:00:19: I'm your host Susanne Loomis and today's episode is a bit of a departure from the usual.

00:00:24: It takes us straight into the heart of how Hannover Re life and health works.

00:00:34: This podcast is for general information only, no professional advice and is subject to change.

00:00:39: You can find the full disclaimer in our show notes.

00:00:42: Today, we're joined by the two executive board members who lead life and health, Brona Magee and Claude Chèvre.

00:00:49: Welcome to this episode.

00:00:50: Hi, Susanne.

00:00:51: Thank you, Susanne.

00:00:52: Together, you bring decades of global experience, strategic insights, of course, and a shared commitment to doing things a little differently.

00:01:01: And today we don't just want to talk about what Hannover Re Life and Health

00:01:04: does,

00:01:05: we'll also talk about what makes it somewhat different and why that difference matters.

00:01:10: It's an opportunity to understand the mindset and values that shape our partnerships.

00:01:16: And I want to start right here.

00:01:18: Somewhat different isn't just Hannover Re's claim, it is a mindset and it has been for a long time.

00:01:25: So How does that work?

00:01:27: What is it that keeps a company somewhat different

00:01:34: for decades?

00:01:36: I think it's a very good question because we get this question every now and then from clients, from brokers.

00:01:41: But from analysts, investors, they exactly ask us the same.

00:01:44: They say, how can you have this claim for decades?

00:01:47: How can you be number three worldwide and still somewhat different?

00:01:51: There's

00:01:52: so many things that make us so much different from our peers.

00:01:55: I mean, for me, I joined Hannover Re in April, twenty twenty three.

00:01:59: So still very much a Hannover Re newbie.

00:02:02: And I would say looking at Hannover Re from the outside

00:02:05: didn't

00:02:05: really understand what the somewhat different was.

00:02:08: It was very clear that the company was somewhat different, but it's very hard from the outside to really understand what Hannover Re is.

00:02:17: But it's been a huge learning opportunity, a huge privilege really to join the company and really see how we are somewhat different.

00:02:24: I think there's a couple of things.

00:02:26: The first thing and the most obvious thing to me joining was there's absolutely no politics in Hannover Re.

00:02:32: No politics.

00:02:33: Pretty much everybody in Hannover Re is working for the good of Hannover Re rather than their own personal interests.

00:02:42: That doesn't mean everybody does exactly what you would expect them to do at every possible moment, but everybody acts with... what they think is the best thing for Hannover Re.

00:02:55: That is absolutely their motivation.

00:02:57: That's a very good point.

00:02:58: The intent is to do the best for Hannover Re.

00:03:02: And this is very important.

00:03:03: There is no hidden agendas.

00:03:05: There's no personal agendas.

00:03:06: There's no team agendas.

00:03:08: I mean, if we can get to a better place for the overall group, everybody does that.

00:03:14: And that's something I've never experienced before.

00:03:16: I think this is one of the biggest differences to other companies.

00:03:20: seen other companies, obviously, this lack of politics.

00:03:23: This is what makes us different.

00:03:25: This is the main ingredient, I would say, but there are a few more, obviously.

00:03:28: What else would you say?

00:03:29: I mean, one of them being the lean operating model.

00:03:32: We always say we have a lean operating model.

00:03:34: That doesn't mean that we have a cheap operating model or, you know, it's not about being cheap, but being lean, you know, having an organization which makes sense, not having too many layers in between various hierarchical levels, you know.

00:03:48: any layer that you put into various hierarchical levels is just adding complexity, is adding politics.

00:03:53: It makes us lower.

00:03:55: One example is the lack of hubs.

00:03:58: You probably want to mention the same thing, but we discussed for years, hey, Claude, don't you want to open an Asian hub?

00:04:03: And we always went against it.

00:04:05: Having a hub that adds another layer of complexity, many, many staff that you need, and this makes us slow.

00:04:11: I couldn't believe when I joined how I was head of Asia for life and health.

00:04:14: That was my job.

00:04:15: I was head of Asia.

00:04:16: And when I joined, I had seven different Asian offices all reporting to me.

00:04:21: To me.

00:04:21: And that was it.

00:04:22: There was nobody else.

00:04:24: And then I reported to Claude.

00:04:25: So the piece of business came up.

00:04:27: It came to me.

00:04:28: I looked at it.

00:04:29: If it was within my authorities and my authorities were big, I could accept it myself with no kind of layer to challenge the business.

00:04:38: If it was very, very big and it really had to be huge, then I went to Claude, but I went to Claude.

00:04:43: Good morning.

00:04:44: We had a conversation.

00:04:45: The deal got approved.

00:04:46: It makes us super fast.

00:04:48: It also keeps us close to the business.

00:04:51: So

00:04:52: again, I mean, there's the two of us.

00:04:54: We've all these different offices.

00:04:56: There's nothing between us and those local teams.

00:04:59: So, you know, we're always on the road out with the teams in the local offices, and it helps us get really close to the people, which means Yeah, you've got very close relationships, you know, exactly what's going on and we can take steps immediately.

00:05:12: Exactly.

00:05:13: And this makes me think, I mean, we have also very little committees, you know, because in other companies, you have all these underwriting committees.

00:05:19: As soon as you have a big deal, you have an underwriting committee with, let's say, the treaty expert, the tax expert, the legal expert, the reserving expert, the pricing expert, the marketing expert.

00:05:29: When you're the decision maker, It makes your life difficult because if all of these experts give you a reason why the deal is going to be difficult, what can go wrong?

00:05:40: It's very difficult for you to go against all these experts in some fashion, right?

00:05:45: And given that we have this direct line with an absence of committees, this makes us also faster, I must say.

00:05:51: And

00:05:51: very accountable then, I think.

00:05:53: And that's another difference that we have.

00:05:55: I think there's a huge level of empowerment.

00:05:58: So the people on the ground are empowered to write the business, but that empowerment comes with real accountability.

00:06:04: So, you know, there's no committees making decisions.

00:06:07: People on the ground are making decisions to write the business.

00:06:11: So they know if they write this piece of business, that reflects on them.

00:06:16: And they take that very seriously because they again are so committed to the success of Hannover Re.

00:06:22: So there's a responsibility, but that responsibility comes you know with the empowerment that they can write business when they need to write it and it makes us so much faster but i also think it results in much better decision making.

00:06:37: what i say is that we're empowerment fetishists really empowerment fetishists and we try to take the decisions at the lowest reasonable level of the company and this is what we're doing and this is also what by the way our clients here appreciate.

00:06:51: these clients they don't want to talk to somebody who has no empowerment and with us.

00:06:55: every single person who visits clients is empowered up to a certain level, which is reasonable.

00:07:01: So when you talk about the empowerment of Hannover Re's employees, you need an environment where people can also feel safe to challenge ideas when they think a different way would be a more beneficial way to the client.

00:07:15: How do you do that?

00:07:16: How do you make sure that there's an environment that allows for people to challenge your ideas?

00:07:21: i think that's where the culture is really important and i think it's really important that people feel safe and they do feel safe with their managers their leaders but also claude and i. so you know again we're always out with the teams.

00:07:35: there's not many layers and there's this feeling of trust and people know when they talk to claude and i've experienced this you know people know that when they talk to claude that You know, he's not out to make your life difficult.

00:07:47: He's not out to make a problem bigger.

00:07:49: He's out to help you.

00:07:51: He hears because people trust him and because people, you know, really know that he's with them

00:07:57: and he's approachable.

00:07:58: and he's approachable and he's, you kind of want to go to Claude with a problem because you want his brain to be working on that, you know, and that's a very different thing.

00:08:08: than we have in most other companies where the last thing you want to do is go to your boss with a problem.

00:08:14: Yeah.

00:08:14: This goes also with empowerment, you know, because empowerment is one thing.

00:08:18: But when something goes wrong, you know, we need to back the people that we have empowered.

00:08:22: And we have empowered the people.

00:08:24: So if something goes wrong, we need to back the people.

00:08:27: And we try to make the problems smaller, rather than bigger.

00:08:31: And this is the point.

00:08:31: And this goes also with some things like no finger pointing.

00:08:35: You know, there is a problem arriving.

00:08:36: OK.

00:08:37: We have a problem.

00:08:37: Let's solve it.

00:08:38: Let's make it smaller.

00:08:39: So you make errors.

00:08:41: And that's okay.

00:08:41: You shouldn't make too many times the same error, obviously.

00:08:44: But there is one error that I don't accept and you don't accept neither Brona.

00:08:49: This is the error of not asking somebody when you're not sure about something.

00:08:54: You know, you can't be empowered, but that still doesn't mean that you know everything better.

00:08:58: So ask and this goes then with the next thing which makes it so different brawn and i'm sure you want to say the same thing right?

00:09:06: yeah and i think that's probably maybe again the biggest difference is just this culture of kindness and people being kind to each other and that doesn't mean that.

00:09:19: they don't give feedback or they don't say when they think you're doing something wrong.

00:09:23: in fact it means the opposite because it's not kind to let somebody continue on what you think is the wrong path or where you think they're going to get into trouble.

00:09:31: so but the way of giving feedback the way of speaking up is always respectful.

00:09:39: people say things in a kind respectful way to help each other.

00:09:44: That's huge.

00:09:45: But this is also what you experienced when you started.

00:09:48: One thing that you told me at the very beginning is you have never seen a company where people are so kind.

00:09:53: They're ready to help, right?

00:09:54: Yeah.

00:09:55: And I started some initiatives when I again was in Asia.

00:09:59: And I couldn't believe the amount of help I got.

00:10:02: People wanted me to be successful.

00:10:05: They really wanted me to be successful.

00:10:08: So they were happy to give me some time of their best people's time.

00:10:13: They were kind enough to offer it.

00:10:15: that support and it was really a wonderful experience.

00:10:18: And this is the reason why I say the only error I cannot accept is not asking for help.

00:10:24: If you're not sure about something, ask for help.

00:10:26: There is somebody in this company who knows.

00:10:29: And I think the nice thing.

00:10:31: again about how every is that it is small enough and it's very easy to reach out to somebody and say can you help me with this?

00:10:39: and if they can help you with this they definitely will.

00:10:41: if they can they tell you who can.

00:10:43: those informal networks i think are usually powerful.

00:10:46: they're nice they feel good but also they're hugely informative as well.

00:10:51: Yeah, you get to answers fast and you don't have to go through time consuming processes.

00:10:56: And it's also a good way to benefit locally from global knowledge.

00:11:00: But you need to have a network and you need to work on the network.

00:11:03: And that means a lot of effort that we expect from our guys, of course.

00:11:06: Yeah, but it brings in a lot of value and but it does mean.

00:11:09: that you have to be a certain type of person i think to really thrive in Hannover Re and we have lots of different people and we've obviously diversity and you know we have different people with the organization.

00:11:19: but there are certain people who really thrive in hanover and they are people who build those networks who assimilate the knowledge but they assimilate the intelligence from.

00:11:30: everybody in the room and those people who have that mindset and culture and there's lots of them, they do really well in slavery.

00:11:38: If you want to work with a load of intelligent people to all work together and kind of to a collective better place, then I don't think there's any other company.

00:11:49: That's exactly the point.

00:11:50: This is this no politics issue that we already mentioned before, yeah?

00:11:53: So we don't let you ask questions.

00:11:55: I'm just fascinated.

00:11:55: You get very passionate.

00:11:56: I would get passionate.

00:11:57: Yeah, I love that.

00:12:00: No, that's great.

00:12:01: That's great.

00:12:03: But I love hearing all those things because I experienced them too.

00:12:07: Working at Hannover Re, I see what you're talking about.

00:12:09: And that's somewhat different, really translates into the daily work.

00:12:14: But how does the client experience this?

00:12:18: I think we've so many examples.

00:12:20: I think the client experiences lots of different things.

00:12:23: They were faster, definitely.

00:12:25: So that's a good thing for the clients.

00:12:28: The local teams, and Claude mentioned this earlier, the local teams can take the decision.

00:12:33: I think at Hannover Re, we're much less likely to say, you know, this is the solution and much more likely to work with the client on a kind of a customized solution and much more interested in solving the problem for the client rather than rolling out one of our kind of ready made solutions.

00:12:55: we don't do everything and i think one thing that we also do is say no very quickly.

00:13:01: so you know sometimes we'll be in a client meeting the client will want a particular type of transaction and we just can't do it and we will say very quickly we can't do that.

00:13:09: so we don't waste their time yeah.

00:13:11: I can think of an example where we were working with a client, there was a piece of risk that we didn't like, but we were able to carve that out and essentially give it back to them.

00:13:22: But it gave them the solution that they needed and we were able to do that very fast, very quickly, at a good price because we were able to structure something that was.

00:13:33: exactly targeted to the problems they have.

00:13:37: We

00:13:37: want that.

00:13:37: every interaction with Hannover Re is a positive experience.

00:13:40: That doesn't mean that we say yes to everything.

00:13:43: We say no in an educated way.

00:13:45: We explain them why, obviously.

00:13:47: And as you said, Brona, It's very important that we don't give the client the feeling that we know everything better, that everything has been invented by ourselves.

00:13:55: We don't know everything better.

00:13:56: Together with the clients, we try to find a solution, work together with the client, building this trust and make the client feel that we take him seriously and we try to solve his problem first.

00:14:07: This is really what we try to do.

00:14:09: And I think the clients, they get that.

00:14:10: They love us because of that at the end.

00:14:13: And

00:14:13: I think one thing a client will never hear from Hannover Re's teams is, I need to go back and talk to Hanover about that.

00:14:19: I mean, we were allergic to that.

00:14:22: So if a team is with a client, they can make a decision.

00:14:26: If the deal is really big, they'll bring Claude or I into that conversation.

00:14:31: The client will never hear, okay, now we have to convene an underwriting committee and that doesn't happen.

00:14:38: And that's, I think, really appreciated.

00:14:40: Absolutely.

00:14:40: It makes a big difference for clients when they're speaking directly with decision makers.

00:14:45: There's a sense of commitment and certainty that comes with it.

00:14:48: I think that's also one thing that clients really love.

00:14:51: And if we say, yes, we can do that, then we give them a deal, execution certainty.

00:14:56: They know that we're going to execute that much faster, obviously, than some of our competitors.

00:15:00: So that's a very important point also that client.

00:15:03: simply they appreciate that.

00:15:05: And we don't change our mind.

00:15:06: I think that's important.

00:15:07: We don't roll back and stuff.

00:15:08: So, you know, if we give a client a commitment that we will do something and then they come back in three months time, we'll still do it, right?

00:15:16: We don't change our minds, you know, month by month, depending on the capacity we've used or something.

00:15:22: If we commit to something, we'll follow through on that commitment.

00:15:27: the guys who do everything for clients.

00:15:29: so there are certain things we do certain things we don't and we're very clear about that.

00:15:33: i think that's also good in my opinion to tell a client very clearly we have taken the strategic decision not to provide this or this kind of services or solutions because it makes no sense for us.

00:15:44: so the way we look into it is always as an entrepreneur in a way we always say we do anything for our clients

00:15:51: which

00:15:51: costs us less.

00:15:52: than it adds real value to the client.

00:15:55: As soon as you start to do things which cost you more than they add value to the clients, then it's gone.

00:16:01: Then you're ending up in lose-lose situations, lose-win-win-lose situations, but you're unable to achieve a win-win situation with a client.

00:16:09: And I think that's also something which is very important.

00:16:11: Being able to say clearly, no, we don't provide you with this, but we provide you with that.

00:16:17: And we don't try and replicate being everything for every client.

00:16:23: But what we do, to Claude's point, we do really well.

00:16:26: We respect our competitors.

00:16:28: These guys are

00:16:29: good.

00:16:30: And we have been working for our competitors, right?

00:16:32: These are good companies.

00:16:33: There is no doubt at all.

00:16:35: What we want to achieve is the best for our clients.

00:16:37: And sometimes the best for a client is a solution from the competitor.

00:16:41: That's a very honest way also to, you know, have that relationship.

00:16:45: And it Builds trust.

00:16:49: have you had a situation where you needed to be very honest and upfront.

00:16:53: Yeah, I mean there's always situations like that.

00:16:56: I mean we write business with lots of clients and sometimes we write business and the business that we end up taking on with the client ends up.

00:17:05: Being different to what we expected.

00:17:07: right we write with a different cohort of people than we thought we were going to end up with and the business doesn't perform as we expected and we have to sit down with the client and say look this is not going as we expect and what actions are we gonna take care?

00:17:21: and i think those conversations.

00:17:23: are so much easier when you have that trusted relationship and the client really understands that we're in this together.

00:17:31: We all want the best for everybody.

00:17:34: It doesn't serve anybody, including the policy holders, if business doesn't perform because that ultimately feeds into worse pricing for everybody along the chain.

00:17:45: So as long as the clients understand, we're all motivated by the right thing and we ultimately all want to get to a good place where we're creating value.

00:17:57: The clients are creating value.

00:17:59: The policyholders are getting value from their life insurance policies because that's what they want.

00:18:04: Then I think as long as the clients can feel that alignment of interest, the conversations are just so much easier.

00:18:10: So it's to create the symmetry with the client.

00:18:14: That's what we try to do.

00:18:15: I want to go back to something that you said earlier in terms of balancing being efficient and Not cutting corners.

00:18:24: How do you decide what's a must have and a nice to have?

00:18:27: I mean, that's where you have to have the right people.

00:18:29: The people on the ground know their business.

00:18:31: They know what's nice to have.

00:18:33: They know what's must have.

00:18:34: And once Claude and I start interfering and micromanaging with our teams, I mean, the whole thing is lost, right?

00:18:42: Then that's just not going to work.

00:18:44: So.

00:18:45: We don't decide that sort of stuff, but we're very clear to people.

00:18:48: We have a lean operating model.

00:18:50: I actually think that lean operating model is a really good thing because it forces us to focus on the must-haves rather than the must-have.

00:18:58: Everybody knows doing their job.

00:19:00: What's a must-have and what's a nice to have?

00:19:02: What we're doing, we're setting the framework.

00:19:04: We set the framework and the framework in a nutshell, it says we want to increase our client's business model effectively for them.

00:19:12: and at the same time efficiently for us.

00:19:15: But what that means concretely for the US market, what that means for the Asian people, what that means for Africa, Europe, this is different and this is where the empowerment gets in.

00:19:26: Our people, they need to translate this framework and then make it work their way.

00:19:31: Yeah, and they decide how to do that.

00:19:33: Thank you for sharing that.

00:19:34: And before we come to an end, is there anything else you'd like to mention?

00:19:38: I think one thing that's really important and that we take really seriously is recruitment, because this model only works if we have the right people.

00:19:49: Our biggest job is to make sure we have the right people in the right place.

00:19:53: That is our job.

00:19:54: And that's where, you know, recruiting people, developing people, that is where we're spending an awful lot of time.

00:20:03: we're

00:20:03: spending tons of tons of hours together by the way recruiting our managing directors gms and this is incredible

00:20:10: and we don't recruit anybody unless we're both convinced this.

00:20:14: person is going to be the right fit.

00:20:16: much to

00:20:17: do it all because you know it's not easy to be successful with Hannover.

00:20:21: you need to be a certain type of person.

00:20:23: yeah

00:20:23: exactly

00:20:24: to be successful we need people who are flexible who run the extra mile.

00:20:28: you notice this open-mindedness

00:20:30: and

00:20:30: the energy

00:20:31: that are some What different?

00:20:33: Exactly.

00:20:34: That's exactly.

00:20:35: Well, thank you.

00:20:35: That's a great look into the mind of Hannover Re life and health.

00:20:38: And it's a good point to end on because it perfectly captures the spirit of what we've been discussing.

00:20:45: Thank you so much, Brona Magee and Claude Chevre, for sharing not just what we do, but how we do it.

00:20:51: Thank you very much, Susanne.

00:20:53: I have to say, that was really fun.

00:20:54: I think working together is always fun.

00:20:56: And no matter what we do, it's always fun.

00:20:58: This is a lot of fun.

00:21:01: OK, so today we've heard why.

00:21:03: being somewhat different isn't just a claim, it is a mindset that shapes how people work, lead, and collaborate.

00:21:10: Thank you for listening to Replay by Hannover Re.

00:21:12: And if you found this conversation helpful, don't forget to subscribe, leave us a review, and stay connected with Hannover Re on LinkedIn.

00:21:19: Until next

00:21:20: time.

00:21:31: The thoughts, ideas, documents and other content discussed or shared in this podcast are not intended to constitute any professional advice.

00:21:37: Hannover Re and the participants are not liable for any damages resulting from the usage of the content of this podcast.

00:21:43: For further information, please see the show notes.